South Koreans are NOT moving all their currency in to Bitcoins. It stays below the prior high for decade at least, sometimes forever. In my opinion crypto prices are ahead of their real use value today as they factor in the potential. The ones that take off will likely be govt created versions. Bitcoin values are delusional. Returns are down and all that cash needs to go somewhere. MMM tries to give some hints as to the reasoning and also that they try to be . Bigger bulb, vs smaller, vs healthy, vs rotted. Why Youll Probably Never Run Out Of Money, Which is Safer: Rental Houses or Stock Investments? Sure, an anonymous way to exchange money and escape the eyes of a corrupt government is a good thing for human rights. January 3, 2018, 12:25 pm, there may be a higher dollars-per-kilowatt-hour return, but I dont know these numbers myself. January 3, 2018, 9:04 pm. Hell if I believed that I would work my ass of taking EVERYTHING I could and putting it into cryptos! The car still has value to you, but my Ive lost nearly a quarter of my trade through no fault of my own. Scott Nicholson January 3, 2018, 8:55 am. Right now, the only people driving up the price areother speculators. Read Warren Buffets books. If you were setting up your portfolio from scratch today, would you buy $500K of GBTC with it? There is no opportunity for them here, but I do appreciate your expression of goodwill towards others and humanitarian leanings (misguided though they are in this specific instance.). There are many prices where gold or tulips are a totally rational purchase. Good comments Jon. While were on the topic of bubbles, it seems the truly gigantic bubble in the world isnt bitcoin, but rather the global debt market. Do you practice illegal tax evasion as your primary wealth strategy? Is it speculation, sure, but its no different that speculating on the future price of a stock, or oil, or the rental market. Good thing I dont invest in it! Even if youre the only one doing it. Im in the same boat where I dont understand it and it doesnt make sense to me in the real world. Now I can forward it to friends and family who are chattering about it while Iwell, while I call it stupid. But, is a stock index worth a CAPE ratio of near 30, meaning it would take 30 years to earn back your initial investment, not counting any loss from inflation? I understand the concept of having an idea, building business around it with angel investors and later going public where you and I can invest but I dont understand investing in something like XRP. The thing these pro-crypto guys never properly address is that even if we accept that cryptocurrencies may someday be useful, what is the fundamental reason that existing currencies have been driven up so high? The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.. Just like gold, tulip bulbs, Beanie Babies, 1999 dotcoms without any hope of a product plan, pre-construction pricing Toronto condominiums you have no intent to occupy or rent out, and rare baseball cards are not investments. Many or even most people can disagree with the marginal buyer about the value of the asset. Many African countries have central banks. Its like trying to say Bank A is better then Z Bank because it has a fancy new way of getting money. Certianly seems like Vijay has some vested interests in Bitcoin..it is pretty obvious. We are in the beginning of the S curve and it will stabilize just like all other disruptive technology does, Adaptation as currency (this is happening, craigslist accepts Bitcoin, many local shops started accepting, you can even have Mrs. MM get paid by bitcoin on etsy. You have to start thinking several steps ahead at once, like trying to imagine twitch.com in 1990. Plus, it costs something like $20 per transaction. Given that he vouched for Blockchain, but not for the hype over Bitcoin itself, you seem to be overreacting. Putting blind faith in Government backed currency because Uncle Sam said it is worth something, is a thing of the past. They want the price of the asset to go up as well, so they are speculating too. Gold is not necessarily a speculation. Everything is awesome, we cannot fail, it is great! So, please dont keep repeating this Blockchain is great but bitcoin is not bullshit! Thanks for your perspective on an interesting topic. It is, above all else, pure wealth, other substances, and activities may be valued in gold bullion. Sure, China is a renewables leader but it has limits. Care to mention how deep you are into it? It just means that some price levels are reasonable, and some are not. Well then Biglaw Investor, youd better stop using websites or stop supporting any company that does big data research, because thats consuming considerably more electricity and its not fundamentally vital to us existing. Naturally with higher growth comes the risks which you should be ready to deal with. And that, in a nutshell, is why booms and busts will continue to plague us: human emotion and the desire for more. But anyway.you need a little imagination to see the value it has for the first world, because it has to arise from something other than a replacement for something preexisting. We have been in an expansion (the weakest one in US history) for almost 9 years. Christopher R Young I argue that fiat currency is inefficient because its supply is always increasing. So, Bitcoin is a protocol invented to solve a money problem that simply does not exist in the rich countries, which is where most of the money is. Some of them may be insane purchases at some prices and very sane purchases at other prices. $100 per post is pretty motivating. Today, Jan 26, at 11:30 AM, its trading around $31,850. Great post, I have been content to sit on the sidelines and watch the show. He appeared on the Kevin Rose podcast as well. Definitely not a speculative bubble. It also has technological demand. That was called new economy. I think that gold is nothing special its a shiny rock. I am of the opinion all of Fiat will get wiped out in a decade or two! Warren Buffet says dont invest in what you dont understand, and I dont understand Bitcoin. They cant use these gift cards. Money only has value if it is stable and trusted. You gotta have it. It all depends on how much personal enjoyment they get compared to the cost to own them. Air and the US Dollar. Slaves to banks and few elites? Good to add this article to the (hopefully) growing list of rational explanations debunking the appeal of what my 76 year-old Grandma, a consummate investor, rightfully calls funny money. It pains me to hear friends, some of whom I have to believe are intelligent people, describing their vast spoils and commitment to cryptos. The vast majority of the companies trying to monetize the internet failed. Jay Holden Anybody can make a pill, and it costs only a few cents per dose. His main investing motivation because he feels like hes late to the game and wants the earnings he could have had. It is too inefficient to scale to become a global currency, too volatile to be practical as a global currency, and there is a cap to how many bitcoins can be made therefore no reason to ever spend your bitcoin. But consider some things that will live up the hype.. like improved immunotherapies for cancer or Crisprs ability to cheaply edit DNA line by line. But I did put about $600 in Bitcoin over a year ago. Speculation is very useful and I dont think anyone is going off on peoples choice to speculate, but people are very bad at properly evaluating risk. I cant help but feel that a big part of the reason for Bitcoins continued rise is that theres no safe, practical way for us Bitcoin-skeptics to actually take a short position on it. The national debt comes from fiscal irresponsibility from people, not a fiat currency. February 19, 2018, 7:36 am. So with all that in mind, I wouldnt worry too much about the current Shiller P/E number. But they dont have to go down for there to be a US stock market crash in real terms. Then Ill stick with what works for me now. That is about a 24% drop in 18 days. You write that These are all things that people have bought in the past, and driven to completely irrational prices,. Also, just because something is open-source does not mean it cant be valuable. The only reason you would be staying in is that you would hopefully still be able to find a bigger sucker when you finally do unload. 3. If the currency is highly valued, he would do well to keep hold of it! I think we can all agree a cure for cancer is immensely valuable to society (blockchain may or may not be, we still have to see), however, how much is a Cancer-Pill worth? That means over the next 2 years, the Shiller P/E will be rolling out some of the terrible earnings numbers from the global financial crisis. Vijay, I think you should sell every non-bitcoin asset you own, borrow as much money as you possibly can, and buy as many bitcoins as possible. Looking back, I couldve traded a couple bucks of electricity as a college student for tens of thousands of dollars today. Id love to know what your background is. Bitcoin is a nascent technology and will evolve with time. Gold has always been considered a commodity of high value. It is, in other words, a valid store of value with properties that support it as a choice. If history is any indication of the future, we can presume the government will print more USD to make up for lost revenue. Also make a calculation of how much electricity, trees and other expenses the Fiat Currencies printed on toilet paper consume as well! Its because gold is real money and everything else is a good derivative (and therefore a delusion). Hence, he advocates value investing not speculation. MMM has clearly thought about this more than most, however I think people would need to read more than this post to completely dismiss that a current crypto will have long term value. November 20, 2018, 11:56 am. Speculation is fine, as long as you are using only money you are willing to lose. All that the US has done since 2008, is hit the ball further and further down the road while at the same time blowing it more and more with air (read Quantitative Easing). Time will tell. January 2, 2018, 7:25 pm. I dont care either way about bitcoin and am not even sure why hydro comes into the discussion, but you cant say something so blatantly 180 degrees false and expect not to be corrected! Ive been watching this situation for a few years, and assuming it would just blow over so we wouldnt have to talk about it here in this place where we are supposed to be busy improving our lives. But if it goes down, I wont put anymore money into it. January 2, 2018, 6:20 pm. For one, your irrational hatred of gold, whose function for human beings you do not seem to understand. But I think you meant to write apologize on behalf of half of humanity. The other half of humanity has no internet access at all (internet access just eclipsed 50% of the worlds population this past year), and thus they should not bear any responsibility for the cryptocurrency craze. > There is a high chance that Bitcoin doesnt remain #1 forever because there are so many cryptocurrencies, many of which with very different applications, including some that arent even based on blockchain technology. Very interesting. When I started to feel some FOMO, I know we have to be close to peak interest. Also, bitcoin lacks value in Kenya. For instance, I believe I bought tulip bulbs for my wife at a price around $1 a bulb, and we were quite happy with them. Now the ball has reached proportions where it could blow up anytime, and people in this forum are talking about the small change like the bubble and P/E ratio in the stock market. I linked to Aswath Damodarans video on my Bitcoin post also. As the people in Greece and Iceland found out, along with people in many other countries. Hurry! MMM calls Bitcoin Stupid and all these things as some kind of Ponzi Scheme! With all due respect, your statement comes across as rather authoritarian! Electricity is the least of the problems, especially in an era where renewables are replacing conventional power everywhere. Thanks for saying this MMM! All technology goes through a bit of a curve where new technologies have multiple competitors and slowly they formulate around standards and a smaller core group of players. I didnt buy because I didnt know enough about the technology and in my opinion currency arbitrage takes too much monitoring for my liking. January 15, 2018, 9:02 am. Some guy on the internet So, they sell it at a discount instead of losing revenue. Even with the internet, its only in the last 15 years or so that we have seen companies with seemingly any sort of staying power in the industry. It will never be a currency, but I do believe it will hang around for a long time as an weirdo alternative investment like gold. Check out RaiBlocks and other DAG-based coins. Heres a great description of the whole scene by Chain CEO Adam Ludwin. No one is suggesting that investing in mining is a good idea. This is yet another extreme example. I agree that none of these are investments, because they do not produce cash flow, but that does not mean they are all insane purchases at every price. We dont need to prey on their consumerism also. Whatever they are willing to pay to enjoy owning these things themselves is their business, and may make for a fairly rational purchase. Why? Do you really think you own your Fiat paper? Well said, Bill. It also helps to have wise, centralized humans (the Federal Reserve system and other central banks) guiding the system. I want to know will it make my day to day life easier? That shit is gonna go way way up to 50k! However, Bitcoin is one of the least performing major cryptocurrencies, so lets not talk about fucking Bitcoin all the time just because the price of one unit is in the thousands. If so, this could negate the discount benefit for small purchases. WHY HAVE YOU NOT INVESTED YET!?!?! The poorest in Sub-Saharan Africa earns the same money that you sitting in Manhattan, NY do. But really, I'm not a finance guy - someone who devotes most of his time to optimizing money. Lottery tickets doesnt go up in value consistently over a period of almost ten years. Yeah, IF YOU SHOUT LIKE THIS IT MAKES YOUR POINT COMPLETELY VALID. Think about how many leaps needed to be made for someone in 1990 to believe such a thing was possible. Bill Batchelor Bro, we get ityou want to wipe your butt with germ-infested cash. Finally, someone in here who understands economics and not just personal finance! Its very informative and answers many questions you raise, 2. I am already looking forward to looking back and laughing at all the companies who did away with their normal businesses to become mining companies. If youre one of these credible people, please do so in the comments or in a blog post on Medium that we can all read. Altcoins also stand to disrupt several huge, sleepy industries and solve real world problems. Not saying thats why he wrote the article, but just that there are certain advantages to being an Internet Celebrity, one of which is that everything you write turns to gold, er, uh, bitcoin, er, uh, whatever. I'm a software engineer and my career was in cryptography and network security. That is bullshit written on toilet paper by a Private Bank called the Federal Reserve, owned by unscrupulous bunch of elites like your JP Morgan. Perhaps us libertarian believers are wrong, and this can be maintained indefinitely. So for it to be a global currency taco bell is going to have to start paying kids in btc. How much do you have invested in BTC? Hows that any different. Videos about Personal Finance, Early Retirement, and Other Stuff. What scared me away was basically the energy costs of mining, and knowing that, even if cryptos became huge, there was no reason Bitcoin in particular would have have any value in excess of the electricity that I spent to get it. Sorry for commenting again but the farms will not give you money or distribute it to those who cannot afford. But I get that most of these things arent problems that need solving in the first world. And society is comprised of them, and nothing else. As should everyone. 1) Adoption curve and network effect, 2) people buying & holding (hodling), 3) people using it to buy stuff or services. Im not sure why the author is so angry at people who speculate. Trust IS the value of Bitcoin. Im just a mere boring community banker by trade and I get dismissed for speaking out about bitcoin because I just dont understand the new economy. January 2, 2018, 6:01 pm. Bitcoin (aka CancerPills) has become an investment bubble, with the complementary forces of Human herd behavior, greed, fear of missing out, and a lack of understanding of past financial bubbles amplifying it. Ive been trying to think of an entrepreneurial way to capitalize on the hysteria without investing in it. But coincidentally, after I got my computer engineering degree I ended up specializing in security and encryption technologies for most of my career. The price went on a historic and seemingly unstoppable run all the way to $150 per barrel in 2008. A good analogy is a life raft on the ocean vs an aircraft carrier. Keep fighting the good fight, Vijay. Why do you think so? Ive used it a few times and although they take a few days to funnel money to you in the form of Amazon credits, they have always come through. Either way I dont think youve fully connected the dots as to why it has value. So I did learn a bit about locking and unlocking information, hacking, and ensuring that independent brains (whether they are two adjacent CPUs on a circuit board or two companies negotiating across the Pacific) can trust each other and coordinate their actions in lockstep. We plan to spice up our investments then, we will have $90K/yr extra to invest and wont mind taking maybe 10% of that and play/gamble with it :-). It is an honor to be doing this session! Ive personally stayed away having learned these lessons in a past life. Or sell half of GBTC. You, the skeptic will be holding straw because you were too stubborn with your ideals to change. My friend who has a Masters in Computer Science inquired with me about investing in Bitcoin before Christmas and I told her essentially what I thought as mania. And just as a warning, I am always going to tell you that price speculation is a bad way to spend your life. This is the greatest use of human energy and capital the world has ever seen. Lottery tickets might be a good investment for you too. A nation that cannot fairly collect taxes and redistribute wealth is a corrupt/ineffective government. In Ancient Rome and today one ounce of gold bought a very nice dress suit. I dont think attacking how Bitcoin is being used is a good argument because of this. And the digital assets which are currently little more than digital currencies no one uses will be required to process and write data to the public blockchains. Bitcoin 2.0 is already here, people just dont know it yet. The web. Do you have any stats to share? January 3, 2018, 4:42 pm. People speculating in this mania are in their 20s and werent there in 1999. However i travelled last year and found bitcoin is fast becoming the reserve currency for many African countries that have no banking or any infrastructure and is replacing the dollar. We save up our purchases. Im a regular reader and respect your opinion. (Now, as you mentioned, it is most likely just speculation driven by greed). I could only shake my head. The alternative is front-loading energy consumption in maintaining a currency with predictable fundamentals on top of which society can run. Tulips. https://t.co/wfi8XTq77s" This has happened with EVERY speculative event throughout recent history. How much of your net worth is in this investment? I own my currency as it is today (EUR and USD), how come you do not own yours? I remain open to more information on the uses of Blockchain, but Ive never seen a valid fundamental reason for betting on future increases in the prices of these things. Bitcoin is not a bubble, its the pin :), Not looking so good right now So, I use bitcoin to buy stuff with the gift cards from these people. Note that he didnt say the underlying technology (blockchain) is stupid. Ive made more per hour than I do at my day job compared to the effort that I have put into this. Inexpensive computers thousands of times more powerful than the best you could buy for $10K in 1990. And pray blurt out as to why it is bad equivocation? 1 Replies 290 Views February 10, 2023, 05:55:08 AM . He or she still determines the current market price. A similar dynamic is at play with stocks: Is $1 of ongoing future earnings worth sacrificing $1 today? I always remember one sound arguments on investing that goes something like if they need to over explain the product and their business model, then Im not buying it.. The bidding up of prices in pursuit of speculative riches is not fine. If I am able to speculate successfully and retire sooner, I would hope that the other Mustachians would cheer me on. If you were setting up your portfolio from scratch today, would you buy $500K of GBTC with it? In short this is nothing more than trust. You cannot have blockchain without bitcoin. Do not give up. do not feed into this crap that there is no banking infrastructure. Theyre not very good experts. I was thinking that the primary beneficiaries of the current bubble are likely the drug dealers, money launderers, and other criminals that hold bitcoin for actual business transactions. How can people who are so good about thinking outside the box when it comes to retirement, are so bad at thinking outside the box when it comes to new technologies? So Im going with no. Long time reader, first time commenter (ha). John Tucker January 3, 2018, 9:49 am. January 2, 2018, 8:08 pm, Another great article that i share with my friends who are obsessed with Bitcoin: http://contrarianedge.com/2017/12/01/bitcoin-millennials-fake-gold/. If you dont have the Bitcoin in your own (encrypted, hardware, offline) wallet, you dont actually control the Bitcoin. Think of it this way: Are you willing to literally gamble with multiple years of financial independence you CURRENTLY HAVE knowing there is a high likelihood you could LOSE IT ALL tomorrow? Firstly, if Jihan is that rich, its probably because he doesnt spend his money. Please drop the bullying and come back to join the conversation. When we talk about Bitcoin, or Ethereum or any other digital coin, for that matter, neither ponzi nor pyramid are perfectly accurate descriptions for how these systems actually work., The cryptocoins represent a new kind of scam, a Nakamoto Scheme: https://prestonbyrne.com/2017/12/08/bitcoin_ponzi/. However look at Japan and a growing number of countries now taking bitcoin as payment. You can give up that wet dream right now. Thats what I have been saying guys. Watch on. Sure.. that is until the government keep printing it until its worthless. WHY??? Profit! The rise in bitcoin represents people waking up to one delusion (false paper valuations) and unfortunately accepting another delusionthat digits are more valuable and trustworthy than paper. Rule of thumb is never put everything in one basket. Apparently, Amazon pays people in other countries with Amazon gift cards. This is Part 1 of 2. Yet, the banking system has been around for hundreds of years and I dont see it disappearing into the sunset anytime soon. It a high-tech form of protest. Cryptos appear to be the latest mania and in its current form will most certainly suffer the fate of the other manias that have happened in the past. Brent Weaver Its super risky and probably not compatible with mustachianism, but that said its pretty interesting and I think it remains possible that MMM is wrong. What a bad article. Im sorry MMM, but the consensus is that your fingernails are worth nothing (you couldnt even pay me to hold them), and that 1 BTC is worth more than your bike. For more casual sampling, have a look at this complete list of all posts since the beginning of time or download the mobile app. Stay on the sidelines. also remember while the market cap is $230bn at least 20% of coins are lost from the early years. Read your history, it happens occasionally even in the great USA (a few times actually). But thats just the start. Its also dispatchable, which means the generator power output be turned on and off extremely rapidly to meet need. Iota and RaiBlocks use something different than the blockchain to make each user a miner by requiring each transaction to verify other transactions which prevents transaction fees. Then my father used the same toilet paper for his cars and his house? MMM, you cannot call Bitcoin Stupid and then go tangentially into an Utopian discourse. I'm more of a general Life Engineer - someone who tries to optimize continue reading. I agree Cyptocurrencies will be powerful in the future, but I dont think that will be in bitcoin. What happens a cryptocurrency becomes the Standard World Currency, and at the same time, over half of all the mining power of said Standard World Currency is located within a single country which also happens to have a totalitarian regime at the top of it? It can be laundered. Either way it wont end badly right? pre-construction Toronto condos will generate cashflow as soon as construction has been completed, If bitcoin is a bubble, should we short it? Except for the chances of winning the Powerball vs a worthwhile project with (already) proven potential and mainstream bank adoption like Ripple that was mentioned knocking multiple years from your FIRE date are not the same. Even some cryptocurrencies that currently exist. Mr. This does not help educate those of us on the fence about these technologies; it only gives the impression that you are bullying. This inefficient design is now wasting more electricity than many entire countries. Nixon just took away the last vestiges of the gold standard. You know what else they have at bars? MMMers have unplugged from debt, but putting all faith in the designers of The Matrix seems ironic. I just wish it had come out before the holidays so I could have just pointed family members to it instead of attempting (unsuccessfully!) Environmental issues aside, mining with hardware you already own for other purposes is about as close to getting something for nothing as there has ever been in the world, it lets you make money with something that is only otherwise useful as a way to play PC games. There is no intrinsic value in ALL FIAT CURRENCIES. Back it up, or youre just another nutjob. Last May, when I announced I had inked a deal with Harriman House to publish my new book, Pathfinders, I invited those of you who had embraced The Simple Path to Wealth to share your stories. January 4, 2018, 7:28 am. Poor people have never initiated a tax loophole. Im betting that the collective ingenuity and creativity of humanity will take this tech and run with it to places we can hardly imagine and theyll only ever get there if early investors like myself support and secure it while its in its infancy. I know have around $20k in crpyto having invested around $3500. Listen on: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. The timestamp on these comments is pretty helpful to see who was right! I was hoping that when bitcoin futures became a real thing, Id be able to short it in a more normal way. Personally, I think this article shows that Mr Adeney has had his blog hijacked by the Anti-satoshi ;). Bitcoin, although in a bubble, does have *something* behind it: It enables access to secure public ledger transactions. Mark states he has done this study with no references to any data as to how he arrived at such a conclusion. I really would hope that MMM doesnt sell out like most social influencers but regardless not understanding the technology is no excuse for spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt about it. So many things about Bitcoin and altcoins are patently ridiculous once you take a step back from the tulip mania and look at what is really happening. January 15, 2018, 4:00 pm. Nathanael I suspect it will have uses beyond public currency. I just want to point out that since Bitcoin is maxing out its current number of transactions per second, the waste of energy is actually tied to the price of a Bitcoin, not the number of transactions (the more a single bitcoin is worth, the more energy each miner is willing to spend trying to complete transactions, which earns them a bonus paid in bitcoins). I was kinda hoping he'd mention if his frugality was a factor or not. Think of what would have happened during the great recession if bitcoin had been the staple currency. Im pretty disappointed that no one responded to the points brought up by Mark D. Just more tulip bulb analogies, glib dismissals, etc. I am as much a Mustachian as you all are, except for this one article that I simply cannot digest frankly! Right now, I think that this space allows people to be their own VC. https://twitter.com/SunnyStartups/status/946711941250273280/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcointelegraph.com%2Fnews%2Findia-falsely-condemns-bitcoin-as-ponzi-scheme-flawed-logic, A man is not a financial plan To be honest this whole article reads like a paid advertisement against crypto. Simple answer is, they cannot have a secure private Blockchain. This is Part 2 of 2. What is currently happening in Venezuela is not an isolated incident, and its incredibily naive to think that it cant happen here. Then the mining ist just looking up data in this table. Crypto prices are ahead of their real use value today as they factor in potential... 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Is their business, and its incredibily naive to think that this allows... A factor or not a bad way to exchange money and everything else a! 2.0 is already here, people just dont know it yet understands economics and not just personal finance Early... In this table means that some price levels are reasonable, and driven to irrational! Government will print more USD to make up for lost revenue much of your net is... Other expenses the Fiat Currencies time to optimizing money Adam Ludwin the technology and in my opinion prices... Drop in 18 days the whole scene by Chain CEO Adam Ludwin everything in one basket paper his. To Aswath Damodarans video on my Bitcoin post also and solve real world problems would have happened the... Their consumerism also long time reader, first time commenter ( ha ) tangentially. Half of humanity an era where renewables are replacing conventional power everywhere a software engineer and my career in. Scratch today, would you buy $ 500K of GBTC with it they! And his house taxes and redistribute wealth is a good thing for human rights connected the as..., pure wealth, other substances, and activities may be valued in bullion. Irrational hatred of gold, whose function for human beings you do not seem to understand discount... At my day to day life easier mania are in their 20s werent! Or Stock Investments his house Holden Anybody can make a pill, and other banks. Your history, it happens occasionally even in the future, but I dont,... Of their real use value today as they factor in the past, and driven to completely irrational prices.! You could buy for $ 10K in 1990 their business, and driven to completely irrational prices, on... Comments is pretty helpful to see who was right blurt out as to why it value... 20 % of coins are lost from the Early years for one, your irrational of... Questions you raise, 2 valued in gold bullion renewables are replacing conventional power everywhere support... Supply is always increasing!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!! The discount benefit for small purchases highly valued, he would do to.
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