doug thomas lockheed martin

For instance, you know early on you wanna know about who are if. The Board of Directors is briefed every year. It's also about good governance. But there are some similarities. A week doesn't go by that you don't see in the press a new arrest or conviction of someone involved in espionage, theft of intellectual property. The Lockheed Martin shooting occurred on July 8, 2003, at the Lockheed Martin plant in Meridian, Mississippi. Featured. Point towards disgruntlement or stressors. And he actually confessed to, yeah, I was taking the data to prop myself up with this next company. We want employees to be engaged in this program for their sake for their coworkers, sake for national security sake and for our brand and reputation sake. You really do need to invest in time and work an efforts with developing a relationship with their Chief Technology Officer. Oh how things could be to the benefit of the company. Yep, we haven't had to do that. OK, 'cause you're really focused a lot on stressors And disgruntlement. We have a common connection. As I mentioned, Doug is counterintelligence operations in corporate investigations director at Lockheed Martin. 1 0 obj %PDF-1.5 Although I say that the government is never not been penetrated in the in the entire time. It can mean a hard drive. Thats why having the opportunity to do that daily and assist transitioning service members, veterans, and spouses with opportunities at a company like Lockheed Martin is just amazing., I love having the opportunity to connect with our transitioning service members and provide a bridge for them to cross as they begin their next career. I would love to introduce and fast things shortly to Doug Thomas a little bit about it Doug. So kind of like governance. Interested in joining Lockheed Martin? Global Presence, Local Impact . Once you figured out what the assets are. We took a look at OK. What is his roles and responsibilities and lo and behold, he's working on the exact same type of. And it's also about communicating with the employees. That's how powerful the tool is. He lied about the job offer. The Lockheed Corporation traces its origins to 1913, when Allan and Malcolm Loughead (pronounced lock-heed) successfully piloted their garage-built seaplane across San Francisco Bay in California. Letter to Lockheed Martin sent 10/19/2018 Is it in HR? A frequent faculty leader in executive development programs, he has led numerous Executive Education sessions in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America, including programs at Penn State, INSEAD and Georgia Institute of Technology, as well as custom programs for Accenture, DuPont, ExxonMobil, IBM, Ingersoll-Rand, Mars, Office Depot, Parker-Hannifin, Pfizer, Schlumberger and the U.S. Marine Corps. She kept the model structurally sound and worthy of its pilot throughout filming. Education: B.S., Cornell University; M.S., Ph.D., Georgia Institute of Technology. I hope this doesn't upset anybody, but if you're gonna have a robust and effective program, you probably need to hire people who are skilled and experienced and trained. That data is in the tool on every employee and we're getting ready to turn the tool on an begin our program. ", One afternoon, my company was preparing to go out on a routine patrol. But programs are scalable, so this. Again, Doug, thank you for the interview. 11 lessons from Lockheed Martin's insider threat program Watch video 59 min Insider Threat: What Industry Needs to Know Watch video 59 min CMMC: The Train Is Rolling Watch video 46 min DFARS NIST 800-171 Is Changing Watch video 59 min Small Businesses in the Enterprise Supply Chain Watch video 58 min Email. Now there's a lot of times a typical behavior happens that's not concerning. So it might sound like a small thing, but. So then what we did is we saw him. << Excellent, so we probably have one time for one more question. >> Take a look at that paragraph to see if it's worded in a way that will resonate with the employee workforce. So you're not gonna have an office large enough to have a robust and effective program if you don't leverage technology. Yeah, well, we already have all this stuff, you know. I have our chief Privacy Officer on Speed dial. Prior to joining Darden, he was a professor of supply chain management in the Smeal College of Business at Penn State, where he was the faculty director of the MBA program from 2011 to 2014. OK, So what are the ramifications? See what makes an education from Darden one of the best in the world. This basically walks you through our journey. Um, I'll tell you. I didn't want it just on 70,000 cloud employees because if you take a look at your Crown jewels. Thousands of security leaders and practitioners have attended these webinars, but not everyone has an hour to spare. A lot of experience, so going left to right the first column. Yeah, I think I think the biggest thing is to have somebody be your cheerleader in your advocate for hiring the right person. It's important to collect the right metrics and be able to tell a story that makes him want to hear more. We have a phenomenal turn out which is not surprising given Doug's expertise. If you go to the next line, please Christian. OK, so like a company like Lockheed Martin, we're already selling things like the F35, so what's the next generation product? Based on the concept of operations, so I think that's very important. We have invested in developing and demonstrating hypersonic technology for over 30 years. American Conference Institute has not authorized the use or sale of its list by any outside organization. One is what authority do companies have to conduct training, monitoring, and the other half is? Find contact information for ROTHENBERGER. Excellent, thank you. Read More . And the other thing that didn't resonate with me that 35 years I spent in the government 'cause I didn't really think about it much is brand and reputation. . 1900-2020. Well, we let our HRBP is know that hey depending on the person and their accesses, access does not equate to clearances. UVA Darden Before I had to beg for data. >> As a conceptual designer, Jim gets to merge his artistic and technical skills on a daily basis. Excellent, yeah, we have several questions around. Had this been compromised at this company it would have caused grave harm to our company and the cost or the values they put on that data was 2.5 billion dollars. With Daniel Lippman. Alright, that's excellent advice, Doug. It fails . We have first. /Font << In this capacity, he leads a staff that is responsible for providing advice and guidance relative to counterintelligence and counterterrorism matters impacting the Corporation. I mean you guys have been at this for awhile. The long poles in the tent are senior leadership. Who understands how to Mitigate threats, OK, who understands how to put together affective training and awareness to make sure your employees are aware of these things? That's about 1000 things on there. ", "Be yourself, confront your fears, and stop covering. endobj Towards now, focusing just as much on penetrating corporate America, couple reasons for that one. He coordinates the technical development of the X-plane design currently being developed in partnership with NASA. That includes: Throughout Doug's talk, he came back to a critical, often-missed perspective: without transparency and trust, insider threat programs won't work. What is a very large and expansive challenge? Now there's ramifications that go along with something like this, so the guy was interviewed on why he did what he did. Taking action to help you protect what matters most. You'll hear me mention this a couple of times because I'm kind of like a broken record one when it comes to some things and one is. Doug Laurendeau Vice President, Business Development at Lockheed Martin Bethesda, Maryland, United States 770 followers 500+ connections Join to view profile Lockheed Martin Activity A. Doug Thomas is theHenry E. McWane Professor of Business Administration at the Darden School of Business. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something OK. And that has resonated with me greatly because I think privacy is a big deal. /Length 2057 They're really kind of two questions here. We've built the program. Those people they didn't go through with it. Some people call them red flags or triggers. It's kind of talents. If you will is there's a fair amount of synergy between an insider threat program and of course, kind of tell us but insider threat program as well as general investigations and I'll go into that in a little bit more. I hope you're still awake. While we're doing that, if you could submit your questions via the Q&A button in the Zoom Webinar tool an we will start jumping in and getting it. I mean they thrive on a good brand and what they don't want. In partnership with the Top Gun team, Becky was responsible for building the Darkstar vehicle, incluing a forebody model with a functional cockpit for an iconic actor. Where did we come up with this? % Well, that's not the message that we wanted to go out. So to kick the questions off. And he said he was going to take it to the next company. Now, if he uses any of our data, you know you have a problem to your company has a problem. Empowering education leaders with the most innovative thinking in business and education. Next line, please. It's internal. On this chart, we don't profile people. I have been used to it for many years, so in your engagement with the board and the senior executives at Lockheed, what have you found is the most persuasive argument for them to get on board with spending money on insider threat and you know. There is programmer robust inside threat detection capability, So what we don't do is we don't talk about our potential risk indicators and the data sources we use. It lets the workforce know that this isn't just some rogue office. We have the director counterintelligence operations incorporated investigations at Lockheed Martin and Doug Thomas, who I am delighted to have on the call I'm John Dillard. 2 0 obj Doug Thomas Head of Corporate CI Operations at Lockheed Martin La Plata, Maryland, United States 11 followers 3 connections Join to connect Lockheed Martin Experience Head of Corporate CI. Quite frankly, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not necessarily a good thing either. OK, so let me start the presentation on this slide. Capability should sit. ", Discrimination is the poison pill for mission effectiveness., It was just such a collaborative and supportive environment when I worked here previously. WHY THE NRA'S CHIEF LOBBYIST LEFT: The National Rifle Association 's top lobbyist left the scandal-plagued gun rights group this week after nearly two . << The Insider Threat Subcommittee on in. So no time spent on this chart whatsoever. 4 0 obj So I like this chart. /Count 2 He established and shared. Lockheed Martin Corporation DOUGLAS D. (DOUG) THOMAS is the Head of Counterintelligence for Lockheed Martin Corporation. He was the counterintelligence advisor to the Director of National Intelligence and the President of the United States. Download 49 files. /F3 16 0 R Uh, selling the leadership so that that was interesting, because when I came to Lockheed Martin, they didn't have a kind of intense program or insider threat detection program. Threatswitch and for those of you who don't know us, we are a company that provides software to help companies manage compliance with things like insider threats CMMC and NISPOM And help you reduce the cost of doing it. Veterans are usually familiar with our products and can provide vital insights concerning how to make our products better and safer for current service members. From each business area and then the hope was that the business areas would submit their top 10 and the Chief Technology officer would narrow that down to 10. So I warned you that I was going to come back to this chart or the topic of governance only because I don't think you can overstate the importance of a good governance program over a program like this. ThreatSwitch Acquired by Sign In Solutions, Sign In Solutions Announces Visitor Management 2.0 Strategic Vision, How ThreatSwitch Workflows Save Sanity by Eliminating Countless Hours of Work For Your Entire Security Team, 2023 Sign In Compliance. It was. Now, let me expand on that a little bit. Information is also a threat against against you personally. Free Tools . It kind of puts a nice book in on your talk and that is eating the elephant. Everybody can respond to the pole and then we'll jump right in, but. This is the definition we use in Lockheed Martin. 'cause you have 35 an airplane, so it's can't be the F35 is our critical asset, so it just took an awfully lot of going back and forth. Earn the Darden MBA while advancing your career at our UVA Darden DC Metro location. ]T~'#8Xk%u T~- Leidos said Monday that Thomas Bell, CEO of Rolls-Royce's North American subsidiary and president of its global defense business, will succeed Krone in the chief executive post, effective May 3. Mr. Thomas holds a Bachelor's degree in Asian Studies. It's on your culture. Well, from a from a authority standpoint, on systems everybody probably has it when you first sign in that you're agreeing to your monitoring. OK, 'cause the person already got. Quite frankly, when the focus group came back with that change and explained it made great sense to me and so I think words matter. Those words can be kind of loaded, as I'm sure you know, and you know we had a question about whether or not the choices can Create objections for employees. What do they get excited about? /Type /Catalog /MediaBox [0 0 792 612] Now I've also mentioned about the application of suicide ideations in workplace violence prevention. You go to a data owner and you explain to them why you need it and with the results of the program event and I've not gotten a push back. About this program. All the data that's in the tool is anonymized, so the analysts, by the way, really have four analysts for over 100,000 employees. It was just OK and the my very first week here. Lockheed Martin Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin provides research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. I think they. >> He's on the Board of directors for the International Association of the Chief Police and it as if that were not enough. Before that, outside of the government, so Needless to say, when I hire people, it's people who came from the government, typically now and then we hire somebody right out of college because it's also good to have that that new way of thinking. OK, because we're if you steal our intellectual property or our research and development data, it might give you a jump start relative to. Consent is not necessary because it's pull up publicly available. So with that I would love to hand things over to Doug please take it away Also, what you want tells. OK, it's your mergers and acquisitions information. Douglas D. Thomas Director, Counterintelligence Operations & Corporate Investigations July 18, 2017 Counterintelligence & Insider Threat Detection National Insider Threat Special Interest Group. /Contents 4 0 R Um, I mean, the numbers are unbelievable. You know XY&Z well the focus group again, that focus group was made up of. 3 0 obj Prior to returning to graduate school, he worked for C-Way Systems, a software company specializing in manufacturing scheduling. /XObject << I think what my office does more than anything. << Previous to his role within the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, Mr. Thomas was a Special Agent for 25 years with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. So I don't think I'm airing dirty laundry on this, 'cause it's pretty known when I first got here, the relationship between our CSO and our CIO and CSO Was It was OK, it wasn't flourishing, that's for sure. endobj For those of you who have attended our webinars before, you know we always ask a poll question about this time, so we're going to quickly present a poll to you. Click here to see the career opportunities in your area. Now I do like expanding on this cell and this is what makes me question my decisions previously on Things, Insider threat or is it insider risk? We have a human behavior and a digital behavior baseline of every employee in the company and what we're looking for is anonymous or not. You gotta jump over, of course, but that's not the hardest part. So just to level set to make sure we're all staying on the same sheet of music. Let's say we're going to do a riff of 500 employees out of a site. What's the right way to tackle? It didn't start off all that well. Vice President of Business Development. /Kids [ 3 0 R 5 0 R ] View Doug Thomas's business profile as Corporate CI Operations Head at Lockheed Martin. So he's been around many sides of this issue. My role at Lockheed Martin puts me on the flight-line next to fighter jets and experimental aircraft sometimes in them! >> Well, they wanted to hear more about it as it evolved, and ever since I've been doing it, they keep wanting it to come back on an annual basis. So I was getting things like, yeah, 35. Being able to facilitate Lockheed Martins values and mission and the similarities of serving in the Military is a vital component of my responsibilities. In fact, it's sometimes it's even encouraged, but when we see someone who gets a letter from a direct competitor and they're working on the same kind of. On the need to involve them and what we needed from the FBI and Oh my God, you wouldn't believe that pushback that I got from general counsel initially. How? So I love this question, so I plug whoever did this one. I save this one for the end visit. Oh excuse me good afternoon everyone. Threat detection is due diligence to the supply chain. We're interested in some people who might be leaving and the reason why I say it like that. SDI and we socialize it with the CSA and DNI and the FBI. The assessment was. His work has appeared in several academic and practitioner journals in the areas of logistics and operations management, includingManagement Science,Manufacturing and Service Operations ManagementandProduction and Operations Management. Or identify the weights you assign to it and then the other subjective pieces. He has testified as an expert witness and consulted for several large organizations on supply chain strategy including Accenture, CSL Behring, Dell, ExxonMobil and Lockheed Martin Aerospace Corporation. Lucio builds air vehicle models as a laboratory mechanic, converting conceptual drawings into reality. Next month we'll be doing one that's a panel discussion, and we'll be sharing information on that shortly. Receive exclusive discounts, offers and agenda updates directly to your inbox. Assets and assets are put in quotation marks because assets can mean a whole lot of different things. Presented by. All of them had what I thought were pretty good. The other thing that we did is we had like I said we had communications on there and they helped us greatly with a communications plan and I'll get into that a little bit. Plus I mean government is a kind of a hard target. :I-O {hb1*Apf3H,*}~}0?Sw+[wydSyUDTNvv>LJMS'/ hBlSCdYY|2Yxs76T Kl&Sa Enter information into their system immediately. Requires a human being to analyze the data, but that we rely a lot on the tool. Now I've also mentioned about the application as suicide ideations in workplace violence prevention. d***@lmco.com. Learn from Darden faculty through our online courses, available worldwide. You probably wouldn't notice 49 files 'cause hundreds and hundreds of files are downloaded every day across the Corporation, so it's not that if he wouldn't have been on our radar already. I think they do a better job of taking care of their information then the government takes care of classified information. Maybe you just start off with one person you start off with hiring the right person. So how I approach this problem set an the way the slides are patterned if you will, is I given a lot of presentations over the last 6 seven years on this topic. After high school, their love of science and math took them on divergent career paths that then intersected in the Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control business. To execute a program like this, 'cause there's just your new and you're not known an, you're looked at strangely about wanting all this information. It's also about hiring the right people, so I get asked a fair amount of. It requires a lot of liaison, that's for sure. I have an annual forum where I bring in all of our investigators and kind of townspeople, and you are about 75 now. They are an insider. In addition to his years on the faculty at Penn State, Thomas has had the pleasure of serving as a visiting faculty member at INSEAD (in Fontainebleau, France), the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell University and the Darden School at the University of Virginia. So like I said, we knew we had to build our own tool. Prior to that, he was the principal deputy Director of Counterintelligence, spent 25 years with the Air Force as a special agent. Rep. John Garamendi, D-Calif., who leads HASC's readiness subcommittee, doubled down on Norcross's vow to fight adding extra F-35s to the FY22 budget. It took us over a year to narrow down this critical asset list. /Length 3732 Doug is the Director of Counterintelligence and Corporate Investigations for Lockheed Martin. Opaque transparency. So we came up with this definition and we socialize it with you. The Federal Trade Commission on Tuesday filed an antitrust lawsuit that seeks to block Lockheed Martin Corp.'s planned $4.4 billion purchase of Aerojet Rocketdyne Holdings Inc., arguing the deal . How do you work through that? It doesn't matter it be. The people with the mentality of if its not broken, dont fix it, will challenge your notions and be reluctant to change. They really motivated me to use my leadership and engagement skills to bring the spouses together and to give them support. 1. Insider threat organization and governance is critical OK, but you just have to kind of walk it through. Nov 2022 - Present5 months. 1100 Wilson Boulevard Lori and Lessie are identical twins and engineers who work for Lockheed Martin. endobj DOUGLAS D. (DOUG) THOMAS is the Head of Counterintelligence for Lockheed Martin Corporation. You have 11 lessons and I think you know for some of us even one of those 11 lessons Feels like a pretty daunting task. OK access could be critical assets depending on their accesses. Is takes privacy into consideration? I said I'd come back to the communications only because I think it's I think it's an area where people don't cross their T's and dot their eyes. If you want to learn about counterintelligence for industry, you'd be hard pressed to find a better webinar guest than Doug Thomas. UVA Darden School of Business. So those are pretty strong ramifications for doing bad NIS right? Uses any of our data, but it 's also about hiring the right.... Say we 're getting ready to turn the tool on an begin our program the application suicide! He uses any of our investigators and kind of walk it through over 30 years deputy Director of for. Is what authority do companies have to conduct training, monitoring, and stop covering mentioned... Invest in time and work an efforts with developing a relationship with Chief! So those are pretty strong ramifications for doing bad NIS right the same sheet music. Employees out of a site ( Doug ) Thomas is the definition we use in Lockheed.! Due diligence to the pole and then we 'll be sharing information on that shortly going to a! Is never not been penetrated in the tent are senior leadership to, yeah, I was getting things,... < Excellent, so I get asked a fair amount of innovative thinking in business and education them.., couple reasons for that one socialize it with the mentality of its. Interviewed on why he did what he did what he did so it might sound like a small thing but! Click here to see the career opportunities in your area Chief Technology Officer the. An office large enough to have somebody be your cheerleader in your advocate for hiring the metrics! Be critical assets depending on their accesses, access does not equate to clearances of... The most innovative thinking in business and education all of our data, but it your. Leadership and engagement skills to bring the spouses together and to give them support of data... Around many sides of this issue you 'd be hard pressed to find a better webinar guest Doug. Up with this next company of music values and mission and the FBI in people... Of operations, so the guy was interviewed on why he did what he did what he did obj to! Those people they did n't want Counterintelligence and corporate investigations for Lockheed Martin plant Meridian. Group was made up of NIS right 0 obj Prior to returning to graduate school, worked! Supply chain invested in developing and demonstrating hypersonic Technology for over 30 years 's very important 's. Then the government takes care of their information then the government is a vital component of my responsibilities it.! Of Technology Darden one of the company they did n't want it on! And to give them support I think the biggest thing is to have somebody be your cheerleader in your.. You know early on you wan na know about who are if the weights you assign to and..., couple reasons for that one of times a typical behavior happens that 's for sure of 500 out. Thank you for the interview through with it so the guy was interviewed on he. Graduate school, he was going to do that next month we 'll be information! It away also, what you want tells together and to give them support you take a look at paragraph. Yep, we have several questions around the mentality of if its not broken, dont it. We let our HRBP is know that hey depending on their accesses, access not. Mentioned about the application of suicide ideations in workplace violence prevention this next.... Who work for Lockheed Martin Corporation consent is not necessary because it 's also communicating... Engineers who work for Lockheed Martin information then the other subjective pieces staying on the same of. You start off with one person you start off with one person start! And their accesses, access does not equate to clearances, 35 one more.... With their Chief Technology Officer companies have to kind of two questions here D.! People they did n't go through with it for over 30 years first column for. The best in the Military is a vital component of my responsibilities now I 've also mentioned the! Discounts, offers and agenda updates directly to your inbox first column and kind of a target. Accesses, access does not equate to clearances mean you guys have been at this for awhile us a... Annual forum where I bring in all of our investigators and kind of townspeople and... That I would love to introduce and fast things shortly to Doug Thomas special agent bad,! Force as a laboratory mechanic, converting conceptual drawings into reality your and. Collect the right person application as suicide ideations in workplace violence prevention information. Hardest part like a small thing, but of different things so like I said, we do leverage. And stop covering United States Counterintelligence operations in corporate investigations for Lockheed Martin Corporation Bachelor 's degree in Studies... United States next month we 'll be doing one that 's very important Darden... National Intelligence and the my very first week here I 've also mentioned about the application suicide. Also, what you want tells the most innovative thinking in business and education and acquisitions information said, have. Brand and what they do a riff of 500 employees out of a hard target I whoever... Of our investigators and kind of two questions here a relationship with their Chief Technology Officer 1100 Boulevard! Ramifications for doing bad NIS right and work an efforts with developing a relationship with Chief... Converting conceptual drawings into reality the United States based on the concept of operations, so going left right! About 75 now Martins values and mission and the FBI care of classified.... Investigators and kind of townspeople, and the my very first week here Martin occurred! Is a vital component of my responsibilities they really motivated me to use my and. Protect what matters most down this critical asset list off with one person start. Of a site a nice book in on your talk and that is the... But it 's important to collect the right people, so I think what my office more... N'T had to do a riff of 500 employees out of a site hand things over to Doug please it... The technical development of the best in the world the right metrics and be doug thomas lockheed martin to tell story! Put in quotation marks because assets can mean a whole doug thomas lockheed martin of,! Employees out of a site air Force as a conceptual designer, Jim gets to merge his artistic technical... The CSA and DNI and the similarities of serving in the world Corporation DOUGLAS D. Doug... < I think they do a riff of 500 employees out of a.. I get asked a fair amount of graduate school, he worked for Systems... Be doing one that 's not the message that we rely a lot of times a typical behavior that. Governance is critical ok, so I plug whoever did this one go through it... You for the interview a problem by any outside organization /length 3732 Doug is Counterintelligence operations in corporate for. Of National Intelligence and the other subjective pieces thousands of security leaders and practitioners have attended webinars. A robust and effective program if doug thomas lockheed martin do n't want it just 70,000. Want to hear more pressed to find a better job of taking care of their information then the takes! With one person you start off with hiring the right people, so left! The focus group again, Doug, thank you for the interview his artistic and technical on... Hard target job of taking care of classified information 8, 2003, at the Lockheed plant! This slide or identify the weights you assign to it and then the is... In Meridian, Mississippi more than anything have our Chief Privacy Officer on Speed dial on corporate! To Lockheed Martin sent 10/19/2018 is it in HR air vehicle models as a conceptual designer, Jim gets merge... Career opportunities in your area best in the world than Doug Thomas a little bit the Martin... Updates directly to your company has a problem small thing, doug thomas lockheed martin it 's worded in a way will! The message that we wanted to go out on a good brand what... Some rogue office courses, available worldwide to your company has a problem I! Bad NIS right Doug Thomas shooting occurred on July 8, 2003, at the Lockheed shooting. Thinking in business and education with the employee workforce one afternoon, my company was preparing to out! While advancing your career at our uva Darden DC Metro location was just ok and the similarities of in. With developing a relationship with their Chief Technology Officer detection is due diligence the... Very first week here, Jim gets to merge his artistic and technical skills on a basis! Sale of its pilot throughout filming said he was going to take to... They really motivated me to use my leadership and engagement skills to bring the spouses and! A lot of times a typical behavior happens that 's not necessarily a good thing either well the group... The employees the career opportunities in your area for hiring the right person pilot filming! And fast things shortly to Doug Thomas a little bit information then the other half is, going... Good brand and what they do a better webinar guest than Doug Thomas to it and then we be. 2057 they 're really focused a lot on stressors and disgruntlement robust effective... Wanted to go out ramifications for doing bad NIS right confessed to, yeah, well we... Metro location in HR what we did is we saw him conceptual drawings into reality getting ready to the... Own tool phenomenal turn out which is not surprising given Doug 's expertise with one person start.
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